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Okay, so I'm going to do some pretty heavy disclaiming up here before I actually get into this because frankly I'm from the Star Wars fandom, and if there's a fandom that knows shipper wars, canon wars, and any other kind of fandom related wars you can think of it's Star Wars.
First of all - I'm not knocking people who like Tony/Ziva. Each to their own, live and let live.
Second of all - I'm not saying that I dislike Tony/Ziva because I tend to ship Ziva with Abby or Jenny. NCIS is probably the most mix-and-match fandom that I've ever seen as far as characters who have awesome chemistry and make totally awesome ships go.
Third of all - I'm not saying that I don't like Tony or Ziva. I do. A lot.
First of all - I'm not knocking people who like Tony/Ziva. Each to their own, live and let live.
Second of all - I'm not saying that I dislike Tony/Ziva because I tend to ship Ziva with Abby or Jenny. NCIS is probably the most mix-and-match fandom that I've ever seen as far as characters who have awesome chemistry and make totally awesome ships go.
Third of all - I'm not saying that I don't like Tony or Ziva. I do. A lot.
But here's why I don't think they should be a couple.
One of the biggest things that I dislike about the way that the TPTB are shoving Tony/Ziva down our respective throats in Season Four is the way that Ziva's character is getting assassinated. I mean, it's about as bad as say Season Five Irina Derevko, or Jaina at the end of the NJO novels, in terms of complete and total reversal of previously dictated character traits.
Example - Ziva kicks ass. Especially in early Season Three episodes where she was introduced. She doesn't discuss her emotions much and she doesn't feel the need to be touchy-feely-share-y. Towards the end of Season Three, specifically Hiatus I & II, and the beginning of Season Four, we get to see more of Ziva's emotional side. But it tends to follow a pattern. She has strong feelings which she tries to contain. Then when she no longer can she breaks down and deals with those emotions. She doesn't whimper and waffle around about the whole thing.
My gripe with Season Four and the handling of Ziva's emotions towards Tony is not that she has them, but the way that she chooses to moan, and look lustfully after, and feel sorry for herself instead of going out and getting what she wants or at least trying to which seems much more in line with what we've seen of Ziva's active, determined character.
However, if we get to see in Season Five that the whole reason that Ziva's been acting the way that she has is not because she's mooning over Tony, but because she's in on the secret op thing and is worried about him as her partner and that's why she's been keeping tabs I will immediately withdraw all complaints on this score.
My next point is this. I don't see any potential for couple-ness with them, and before you scream let me explain why.
Sure they're hot. They are both very, very, smokin' hot. Have I expounded on their hotness enough yet? And that's great. Some relationships, especially on tv, can be based entirely on hotness, but these two don't seem to work that way. Both seem to enjoy sex and have a very healthy sex life, but I've seen no evidence of uncontrolled lust on their parts, at least directed towards one another. On occasion they aren't above flirting with one another, but the flirting doesn't seem to be flirting for the sake of flirting, but for the sake of getting something from the other, or distracting the other, etc.
Also in comparison with the way that they react to other characters they really don't seem interested. Frankly I think a lot of this has to do with Kate and how Ziva was introduced.
Kate and Tony had a vibe. Kate was the puritanical good girl, with the occasional bad girl streak to tempt Tony. Tony loved to flirt with Kate because he could easily get under her skin. Kate could equally flirt with Tony by saying no. She was aware that it drove him crazy, in the same way that he drove her crazy so she used her advantage. There was lots and lots of tension between the two of them.
When Ziva was introduced she was not in the least puritanical. She gave as good as Tony and then did him one better. It distinguished her from Kate, gave them a different vibe and way of interacting, and also gave the two of them almost anti-chemistry. If you'll notice when Kate went out with a guy, Tony seemed to be almost jealous and needled her about it. Tony and Ziva on the other hand often seem to compete to see who can get the most hookups. Case in point - that episode with the park rangers, and trust me there are others.
And lest you think, I don't see Tony/Ziva because I'm stuck on Tony/Kate let me point you to several other examples. Tony/Abby for one. I would just about die of squee if that ever happened. Because Tony and Abby do care about one another. Tony is very protective of Abby and that's indicative of the feelings that they have for one another. They flirt, they have chemistry and they know one another very well. Tony doesn't have any need to be protective of Ziva. She could kick his ass and she's proven it. Also Tony and Ziva seem to have no need to bond and share their feelings.
If anything, bonding and the sharing of feelings seems to be what Ziva does with McGee. From that respect, I could see some of McGee's unique personality, his little bit of naivete and charm leading to a relationship between him and Ziva. The way that he can seem to draw emotions and/or discussions of feeling from Ziva could definitely lead to a relationship between them.
I could go on. Tony and Jenny have loads of chemisty, moments filled with tension, silences and knowing looks. Yes, that probably is the whole secret op thing, but...
I rest my case. Quite frankly, I think Ziva and Ducky have more chemistry and potential for an interesting relationship. Tony and Ziva have very little chemistry, and no conflict with which to resolve and work towards building something between them.
One of the biggest things that I dislike about the way that the TPTB are shoving Tony/Ziva down our respective throats in Season Four is the way that Ziva's character is getting assassinated. I mean, it's about as bad as say Season Five Irina Derevko, or Jaina at the end of the NJO novels, in terms of complete and total reversal of previously dictated character traits.
Example - Ziva kicks ass. Especially in early Season Three episodes where she was introduced. She doesn't discuss her emotions much and she doesn't feel the need to be touchy-feely-share-y. Towards the end of Season Three, specifically Hiatus I & II, and the beginning of Season Four, we get to see more of Ziva's emotional side. But it tends to follow a pattern. She has strong feelings which she tries to contain. Then when she no longer can she breaks down and deals with those emotions. She doesn't whimper and waffle around about the whole thing.
My gripe with Season Four and the handling of Ziva's emotions towards Tony is not that she has them, but the way that she chooses to moan, and look lustfully after, and feel sorry for herself instead of going out and getting what she wants or at least trying to which seems much more in line with what we've seen of Ziva's active, determined character.
However, if we get to see in Season Five that the whole reason that Ziva's been acting the way that she has is not because she's mooning over Tony, but because she's in on the secret op thing and is worried about him as her partner and that's why she's been keeping tabs I will immediately withdraw all complaints on this score.
My next point is this. I don't see any potential for couple-ness with them, and before you scream let me explain why.
Sure they're hot. They are both very, very, smokin' hot. Have I expounded on their hotness enough yet? And that's great. Some relationships, especially on tv, can be based entirely on hotness, but these two don't seem to work that way. Both seem to enjoy sex and have a very healthy sex life, but I've seen no evidence of uncontrolled lust on their parts, at least directed towards one another. On occasion they aren't above flirting with one another, but the flirting doesn't seem to be flirting for the sake of flirting, but for the sake of getting something from the other, or distracting the other, etc.
Also in comparison with the way that they react to other characters they really don't seem interested. Frankly I think a lot of this has to do with Kate and how Ziva was introduced.
Kate and Tony had a vibe. Kate was the puritanical good girl, with the occasional bad girl streak to tempt Tony. Tony loved to flirt with Kate because he could easily get under her skin. Kate could equally flirt with Tony by saying no. She was aware that it drove him crazy, in the same way that he drove her crazy so she used her advantage. There was lots and lots of tension between the two of them.
When Ziva was introduced she was not in the least puritanical. She gave as good as Tony and then did him one better. It distinguished her from Kate, gave them a different vibe and way of interacting, and also gave the two of them almost anti-chemistry. If you'll notice when Kate went out with a guy, Tony seemed to be almost jealous and needled her about it. Tony and Ziva on the other hand often seem to compete to see who can get the most hookups. Case in point - that episode with the park rangers, and trust me there are others.
And lest you think, I don't see Tony/Ziva because I'm stuck on Tony/Kate let me point you to several other examples. Tony/Abby for one. I would just about die of squee if that ever happened. Because Tony and Abby do care about one another. Tony is very protective of Abby and that's indicative of the feelings that they have for one another. They flirt, they have chemistry and they know one another very well. Tony doesn't have any need to be protective of Ziva. She could kick his ass and she's proven it. Also Tony and Ziva seem to have no need to bond and share their feelings.
If anything, bonding and the sharing of feelings seems to be what Ziva does with McGee. From that respect, I could see some of McGee's unique personality, his little bit of naivete and charm leading to a relationship between him and Ziva. The way that he can seem to draw emotions and/or discussions of feeling from Ziva could definitely lead to a relationship between them.
I could go on. Tony and Jenny have loads of chemisty, moments filled with tension, silences and knowing looks. Yes, that probably is the whole secret op thing, but...
I rest my case. Quite frankly, I think Ziva and Ducky have more chemistry and potential for an interesting relationship. Tony and Ziva have very little chemistry, and no conflict with which to resolve and work towards building something between them.
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From:
no subject
I'm glad you're not a Tony/Ziva shipper; it would be a waste of your talent!
From:
no subject
Thanks for thinking I have talent. I hope that means you've enjoyed my fics. :) And it's always good to see another Abby/Ziva shipper! Do you write yourself?
From:
no subject
And no, I generally don't write myself. I've written 3 fics before, but they weren't Abby/Ziva. I don't have the balls to try to write Ziva, coz I know I'd screw it up!
From:
no subject
Trust me, I feel exactly the same way every time I sit down to write Ziva. And Abby too actually. Lol.
From:
no subject
I'm slightly more confident with Abby than Ziva, because I've loved Abby from the start whereas it took me a while to warm to Ziva, so I feel I have a better feel for Abby.
Plus, I tend to just write PWP, or if there is a slight plot it's for the purpose of supporting the porn, so there's more sex and less dialogue for me to mess up!
From:
no subject
Lol! See now that's where you have me. I can't write a PWP to save my life!
From:
no subject
I'd much rather have the writing skill you have, as opposed to my own filthy mind!
From:
no subject
Do you mind if I link to this in my lj?
From:
no subject
And no, I don't mind at all. I'd love if you link to it. :)
From:
no subject
From:
as per your suggestion the other day, i have checked out the rant..
i like your point about hotness. how sometimes it really isn't enough. my main fandom is BSG, and there is a huge collection of Kara/Lee shippers, who are fanatic about it to the point of being annoying. i hate those two because it's such a disfuntional mess, but the fangirls just squee over them. and the only reason they have for liking them and wanting them to be together? "they're hot!". that's it. *shakes head* anyway back to the point.
you explained your opinion on it really well. i just meant that they should just do it and then realize, "you know, this wouldn't work. maybe we should just get past it."
From:
Re: as per your suggestion the other day, i have checked out the rant..
Hmmm, now I hadn't thought of that. I can't just imagine the really awkward morning after moment between them. :p
From:
Re: as per your suggestion the other day, i have checked out the rant..
From:
Re: as per your suggestion the other day, i have checked out the rant..
From:
Re: as per your suggestion the other day, i have checked out the rant..
From:
Re: as per your suggestion the other day, i have checked out the rant..